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Some Republicans working towards theocracy. 

 
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charles

 

charles Avatar

Location: United States

Registered:  6/20/2003

Posts: 2940

 Are republicans leading us towards a theocracy?

 

Not sure how reliable the source is, but scary, if accurate.

No more monologuing, or I'll Swiss-cheese you on principle.

-The Middleman

Daniel

 

Daniel Avatar

Location: Unknown

Registered: 5/9/2006

Posts: 423

The argument can certainly be made that a portion of the US population is taking a more conservative social direction and that normally translates to Christian. The thing is that’s actually pretty normal in times of change and disruption. People yearn for what they know.

I don’t really think we’ll ever go the way of a theocracy in the sense of the Islamic states. That’s just too radical even for most people who in theory might like the idea. The fact that Christianity is a fractured religion of hundreds of slightly different groups helps assure this. It’s hard to have a supreme religious leader when every different sect claims they have the correct interpretation of the bible and I just have trouble seeing (to name 4) the Church of Christ, the Southern Baptists, the Lutherans and the Episcopalians all sitting town to come up with a compromise to create The Church of the United States and even then you are still have to deal with the Catholics (Roman and Orthodox). 

This round of conservatism will pass. We just have to hope that not too much damage will be done in the intervening years.

Ultimately most younger people in the US are much more liberal than the older generations and when they see these stunts it ultimately just turns them off. Personally I don’t really want to live through the dark ages but in some respects are least I know that the ultimate result will hopefully be a boomerang of more rationalism in the future as people see the ridiculousness of these arguments. Hopefully the reaction will come well before we start stoning gays and children who talk back to their parents.
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge
--Flogging Molly

charles

 

charles Avatar

Location: United States

Registered: 6/20/2003

Posts: 2940

I see your point and agree.  And while I sometimes thing ACLU sticks it's nose where it's not really wanted or needed, I also think they would at least try to fight this sort of foolishness if it becomes law. And rightly so.  Meanwhile, I cringe every time I see some idiot championing yet another so-called "save the family" anti-gay-marriage law. Like gays can make any bigger mess of families than we already have? I just wonder how much damage they can do, all in the name of faith, before we get smart and stop them.

 

And it truly amazes me that the Republicans are the first group to stand up and swear that they want to uphold "christian" values. That the laws they pass or support are founded on "Christian" principles. Yet they completely oppose universal health care; the single most Christ-like legal measure attempted in my memory.  Christ spent more time and energy healing others than any other single form of miracle. He called on his followers to help others, even when doing so risked legal troubles. Heck, he even made a parable expressly about healing others.  The Good Samaritan is exactly that: the priests and power elite refused to help the man who'd been beaten, while the samaritan (an outcast class in Israel) stopped to help.  That seems like something the republicans should be championing above all else, if, as they claim, they are all about a return to Christian values in America!  But they don't champion such measures, so I guess that proves their hypocricy. It's a shame, really.

 

Meanwhile, let's start another holy war in the middle east.  It's not quite enough of a cliche yet.

 

I see a corellation between the resurgence of conservative faith and the current mindset, best voiced by a preacher not too long ago, when talking about science vs the bible, "Science is wrong." And no, that's not a partial quote or a taken out of context quote.  I've got several cousins whom I've heard say that science can't be right about the age of the universe.  After all, the bible says it took only 6 days.  Further discussion from one younger cousin seemed to boil down to, "I don't really understand science.  It's confusing.  The generalities and over-simplifications I've heard make no sense. Rather than try to further grasp what they mean about such complex subjects, I'm going to reject it as lies and go with the easily understood Genesis version." Nevermind that genesis has two versions.

 

This idea that science is like a faith, that it can be believed or denied, followed or rejected, without consequence worries me.  Because removing science (and it's related studies, like history) from our core, accepted view of the world leads to dark ages, too, I fear.

 

Besides, as I've tried to voice, with little success, if Genesis is to be believed, then that leaves only three logical explanations for science in total. Each of which has a critical flaw.  But logic doesn't work with faith, so...

  1. For all the evidence to be reliable, but the outcome (evolution, as a theory, is vald and/or the universe really is billions of years old), then God must of planted the preponderance of evidence. This makes God a liar, which refutes everything the Judao-Christian world says he is.
  2. OR God didn't plant the evidence. Instead, Satan did so.  But in reading the book of Job, it is clear that Satan only does what he is allowed to do.  So Satan planting evidence makes him a creator with powers far in excess of what a monothiestic system should allow OR again God let him do it. 
  3. OR all of those scientists, across all of the different fields of study, in every nation and every personal background, are somehow brainwashed into lying, in mass, to everyone. And with such comprehensive and creative efforts as to make any fictional works by any and all authors quite pathetic by comparison. And all without letting sufficient evidence of the lies out to bring down the entire sham. And without anyone of credit in non-science fields figuring it out and exposing it (wouldn't Fox News just love such a story?!).

I don't see how any of those three answers are acceptable from a Christian frame-work.  Occum's razor applies: these answers fail to satisfy, so chances are the bible's story is the failure, not the science.  When I've heard an explanation, it seems to be some vague effort to push the blame on #3, but that's just too far fetched. No conspiracy so large could truly survive and thrive.

 

No more monologuing, or I'll Swiss-cheese you on principle.

-The Middleman

Daniel

 

Daniel Avatar

Location: Unknown

Registered: 5/9/2006

Posts: 423

Your comment on Republican = Christian reminded me of something a teacher said one day. He was also a minister. He was also a campaign advisor for several Democratic candidates. He said something to the effect of the Republicans have somehow become the party of Christianity while the Democrats are the party that believes in Christian ideals. As we see Christianity today (kinder gentler buddy Jesus not the pissed off God the father) the Democrats have a lot more claim to the religion. Reagan was really the first Republican to beat the bible. Kind of funny when you think about the fact he was an actor who beat out the minister on who's a better Christian. Sais something about politics and American religion.
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge
--Flogging Molly

Daniel

 

Daniel Avatar

Location: Unknown

Registered: 5/9/2006

Posts: 423

Islam holds a good example of what religion vs. science holds for those who believe without questioning. The Islamic world (and I do mean Islamic not middle east) was far head of the west in science and medicine until somewhere in the 1200s if memory serves me. That is when the clerics decided that all useful science had been discovered and a dark ages of sorts emerged or to put it simply new ideas stopped. It is not a particularly pretty picture to see the results.

Once again I don't think we can really compare ourselves to the mid east because Christianity is so fragmented that even without the annoying free thinkers and non Christians you would never get all the Christians to agree to a supreme religious leader. It's kind of the Sunni vs. Shia thing and if you look at the mid east political borders break down along which form of Islam is practiced with the "other" group being repressed or actively persecuted. Imagine that times a hundred. Christians can't agree on the age of the earth. The Catholics and many Protestants say "ah whatever ask the scientists" while other Protestants say 6000 years. They can't agree about gay men and women. The Episcopal Church says it's all good. The Southern Baptists (amongst others) say with glee they will burn in Hell. Way to divided and for that I am thankful.
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge
--Flogging Molly

charles

 

charles Avatar

Location: United States

Registered: 6/20/2003

Posts: 2940

Islam gave us modern math, much of medicine, and paved the way for astronomy and other modern sciences. Yet we give no credit whatsovever to them.  Oh, we (as decendants of Europeans) look back and say we gained much from Rome and Greece, but we ignore Islam.

 

The again, Europeans effectively shut down Islam's supremacy with great vigor.  Europe didn't win, long-term, in the crusades.  But they attacked the Americas with great enough vigor to ruin Islam on several levels.  By basically raping and plundering the new world, Europe suddenly had a vast new pot of gold to distribute. This destabalized the economies of nations that didn't have colonizing efforts in motion.  Cheap labor via slaves taken from N and S America (and later via Africa), Europe had cheap labor to make their products.  In effect, America was the "Made in Taiwan" of that era, with devastating consequences for everyone around them.

 

I'm sure the religious leaders stepped into that and closed the door on new ideas and change.  Probably even demonized "change" as the source of their woes.  But they had help in achieving those ends.  I just hope the evolving globabl economies today don't have a similar effect on the US. As our economy continues to suffer and China's continues to improve, it's not that far-fetched to wonder if we could end up in a similar position.

 

Oh, I agree that Christianity's splintering (also in part a result of the Americas and how Europe was shocked at how complex the Americas were, without any biblical explanations) will continue to prevent a true, centralized, theocracy from taking over.  But it seems the voice of the far right is becoming more and more vocally aligned with conservative Christianity.  And that voice seems less fearful of backlash than, say, a decade or two ago.  Perhaps I'm reading more into it than I should.  I hope so. But I worry that the right is using Christianity (all while painting it as a prosecuted belief system) as a tool to expand their power.  After all, if you call yourself a Christian, then how can you NOT vote for this person or this amendment that's so outspokenly Christian?!

 

And try telling a Christian that most (all?) of our founding fathers were Deists who didn't really beleive in Christ as God's son. That'll get you some incredulous looks! Ah, I love revisionist history.

 

Sorry about these posts. I'm re-reading "Lies My Teacher Told Me." That's gotten me feeling a bit critical of our government and it's policies.

 

No more monologuing, or I'll Swiss-cheese you on principle.

-The Middleman

Daniel

 

Daniel Avatar

Location: Unknown

Registered: 5/9/2006

Posts: 423

Carefull Charles the masters do not like a thinking populace.
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge
--Flogging Molly

charles

 

charles Avatar

Location: United States

Registered: 6/20/2003

Posts: 2940

Daniel
Carefull Charles the masters do not like a thinking populace.

I think you may be right.  The site was down this morning, due to a database server error.... Or was it???

No more monologuing, or I'll Swiss-cheese you on principle.

-The Middleman